Dancing Around the Four Sides

:-)

I seriously doubt the presence of God in schools and government has anything to do with it. After all, some of those who have been the worst offenders in terms of morality have been people who supposedly were very close to God and even preached his words. People have been behaving badly throughout history -- it just seems that politicians have been grabbing that brass ring a lot lately. *g*

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Yes, I know what you mean. I just didn't want to get all long-winded trying to touch on both sides of the coin. :)
It seems also that lots of politicians use their (alleged) faith in God to get the votes of the religious people. I may be a believer but one who simply tries to live what I believe. Nor do I ever pretend to be flawless because I believe. I vote based on a person's ability to get the job done, not who they worship. Sarah Palin will never get my vote. Lol!

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THAT WOMAN IS SO NUTS. Oh my god, Fairy, I just shake my head every time I see her on TV!

♥ ♥ ♥

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Oh, I know! She's sooo creepy!! The fact that McCain chose her as a running mate made me wonder about the soundness of his judgement, as well. =O

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damigella

And in Italy the more they're "Christian" and the more immoral they are. In the moment the only top level Italian politician who was not demonstrably unfaithful to his wife is the Communist President. Should I deduce we should teach Das Kapital?

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Just to be clear on 'where I'm coming from:
The line between being religious or christian and a genuine believer has become muddied.

Take Mother Theresa for example: she was a person who had a true relationship with the God she believed in. I mention her since she's one of the few visible ones and we all know of her. I was raised in Catholicism and walked away from it because of the many inconsisties I personally experienced. Later, I came to a different understanding.

It's also why I don't vote for many 'professing' christians. That word was coined by the people of Antioch when referring to Jesus' disciples as 'little Christs'. It then later became a way for the east to identify western religion and what christians called themselves. It really never meant what it has come to mean and I don't call myself one.
The word 'christianity' has nothing really to do with actually following the ways of Christ.

So, when 'I' refer to taking God out of schools (or elsewhere) I'm meaning the moral standard of a people as it should be because of a true belief in Him, not a religious presence in those places. I too get disgusted with how the 'christians' are often so much more corrupt than even atheists or communists. :)

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damigella

I know that there's quite a Mother Theresa worship there in the US. I'm not going to discuss this any further. I respect your thoughts, but can't share them. I was raised Catholic, too.

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I don't really know if people here in the US worship her or not. She's just the only prominent person I could think of when I was writing my thoughts, who lived what she believed.

I hope you didn't feel like I was bashing Catholics or Catholicism. It just didn't work for me because of what I experienced. There was no offense intended, I hope you know. :)

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damigella

I bash Catholicism much more than you can do, and Mother Theresa for following it. To the point of putting rape victims in front of the choice between giving birth to their rapist's child and being left on the street to fend for themselves. Mother, my foot.

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*I bash Carholicism...*
Ah! I see. I wasn't sure if you had been offended by what I said or not. Lol!

I may dialogue about things but its never my intent to judge, force my views, be the know-it-all, or superior to anyone or any of the like. It's the dialoguing that brings up things or perspectives I've not encountered before. Gotta keep learning. You have an interesting perspective. :)

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With the disclaimer that I don't want to start an argument, "God" is *not* the fundamental basis of most of the world's morality. The absence of theistic belief does not make one a less moral person.

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elynittria

Amen! ;)

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What a gorgeous icon!

:-)

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Nebet Aset! Weben em nefuru, nutjert en Ankh! *geek moment* ;D

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I don't want to argue either. I'm simply sharing, if I may.

I can only speak from what I personally have learned about (so far) theistic influences throughout history and my own personal experiences and observations. (Ive spent many years in Europe and the United States as a result of my dad's military career and seen plenty of religious influences of several kinds or I'd have little to recommend myself in the way of any world views.) My mother is not an American, but born and raised European: implying that I've been outside my own back yard quite often.

If I find that my limited scope (I don't know it all) of life has made me wrong then I'll stand corrected and adjust my views accordingly. I don't offend easily and no offense taken. I appreciate candidness. :)

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Oh, and I wasn't meaning that one cannot be moral without believing in a God. I've said many times I'm not a good writer. I'm better at being more clear when talking.

Where do the moral beliefs come from if not from the religious teachings? Isn't the influence of religion what drove the ideals of moral behavior? Historically speaking. In the more modern age there is a trickle down effect from religious history's influence: or so it seems from what I've been exposed to. If there had never been religious influence about moral behavior would people really think you should have only one spouse and not cheat, for example? Where did morality come from? I think most of the world ( not all ) had had morality passed down via religion and it still influences people, even those who are atheists. Similar to the way things just get passed down through their family lines. It's a topic I'm interested in and I try to keep an open mind about.

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Your statement certainly read that only those who followed your particular variety of religion had morals. I thought that perhaps you hadn't quite intended it that way, which is why I tempered my response to the implication that I'm some sort of immoral degenerate because I don't follow your creed. I'm European, I've lived in Africa, and in South America for a time, and now in Canada. My parents are/were Atheists, and I was not raised with religion. I've lived along side Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Animists, Christians, Agnostics, Secular Humanists, Atheists, Pagans, and believers in various traditional indigenous faiths that have nothing to do with the "big three" monotheisms. Amongst all of those people were decent, moral people, and creeps, jerks, liars, thieves, and other forms of immoral criminal people. Their actual religion had *no* bearing on whether or not they were upright people. Morality -- in the sense of treating people decently, and living harmoniously within society -- is something that is fundamental to humanity and has therefore been formalized in various ways by religion (as expressions of the ideals within their particular societies) rather than the reverse.

would people really think you should have only one spouse and not cheat, for example?

This is a very bad example. Why *should* people have only one spouse and not "cheat"? You think the explanation is moral, but if you dig you'll find it's more about property rights (i.e. the male controlling access to the female(s)), the desire to control parentage, and inheritance rather than any sort of morality. There are many cultures where people are not monogamously pair bonded (or at least not exclusively) that function perfectly well. The fact that so many people (regardless of religion) commit infidelity in our society (which holds monogamy up as an ideal) points to the fact that it's actually not hard-wired into us as a species. In fact, for all your "morality comes from religion" infidelity was if anything more common in the past when people were ostensibly more devout. The only difference was it was held up as an ideal for the *female* (who could be killed for transgressing), while males -- particularly middle class and higher -- were viewed as well within their rights to procure sex however and with whom they chose. As another example of Judeo Christian "morality", it is unclean to eat shellfish or pork. Since the underlying reason (the potential transmission of parasites or pathogens) is absent in a temperate climate and a modern context, this is a moral principle that has "gone missing". How very lacking in morals! *rolls eyes* All you have to do to see this process in action is look at something like the fight about the morality (or otherwise) of keeping dogs in Islam. There are still forces agitating that it's impure and morally "wrong" and that people should be punished -- all because of a law that is either based on the risk of rabies transmission where vaccination does not occur (which makes sense given roughly 30000 deaths in India annually from the disease), or based on a symbolic misreading of "dog" to mean hyena (i.e. desert demon, a djinn). The upshot? No matter which religion, the morals which are espoused are either fundamental to a social animal (which is what humans are) or are filtered through a particular cultural lens. The cultural ones are all debatable, given that many are outdated, xenophobic, misogynistic, or highly inhumane.

For reference, for the source of morality having more to do with social behavior than religion, it's fairly well explained inthis link) that it is inherent in the species, rather than any particular religious construct. Most of the world do not subscribe to the Abrahamic religions in any case, and often while they culturally claim a faith, they do not practice it. This is particularly prevalent in places like northern Europe, where society is very secular these days, and steadily becoming more so. I view this as a good thing. In a enlightened free society people can practice their religion (whatever that may be) in private -- it doesn't belong in public schools, and it certainly doesn't belong in politics.

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Well, you sure showed me. Lol! Thanks for giving me the benefit of the doubt and tempering your response. I think I sensed you would do that so I forged ahead feeling pretty safe. I think people can learn a lot through dialoguing this way. I know I am. While I don't have much of a filter when I communicate and am quite clumsy at it sometimes, I'm pretty harmless. =D

My dad taught me to take people at face value and not judge them for being different. Its the differences that keep things interesting. Jackal, I must be a backslider because I have gay friends and I'm not in church every week. Lol

I'll take a look at those a little later, today. Thanks.

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pwcorgigirl

Well, everyone knows how much politicians love themselves!

Seriously, though, that's such a stupid high schoolish thing to be doing.

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And he stood there and lied about it just last week! And people fell all over themselves to show how his Twitter stream HAD TO HAVE BEEN HACKED.

What an idiot.

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pwcorgigirl

It's always stupid to lie, but particularly so in this case, since he wasn't trying to hide his tracks AT ALL. Moron.

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damigella

Somehow I find all of this so minor. You have politicians lying about sending around pictures of their belly, and we have a Prime Minister who happily declares he pays hookers, some of them minors (above-age-of-consent minors).

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I think part of the uproar is because Anthony Weiner was seen as one of those rising young stars, a progressive Democrat who stuck to his guns, who tweaked the right wing, who wasn't afraid to say things that other Democrats wouldn't. It's possible he could have become a Senator, and who knows after that? Sort of a younger Eliot Spitzer -- a young man going places, maybe all the way to the White House.

And then he does this, and all that promise is thrown away. Just like Spitzer.

Oy.

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damigella

Sorry, I didn't know the context. Oy. [If I goy can say that.]

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You most certainly can say that. I'm not Jewish either (but my husband is).

:-)

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deelaundry

Mr. L this weekend played me an amusing song he'd heard called "My Dick," the lyrics of which all extol the singer's penis as being superior to all other men's penises.

Uh...

Yeah.

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Heh. I got nuthin', bb. Men and their junk, it is a mystery.

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The more they preach "morals" and "family" and "God" (of whatever stripe) and "Church", the more venal they are is the short answer. It's also a good clue that their self-righteousness equates to self worship. World needs more communist lesbian athiest anarchists in charge. At least then the "leaked" pictures would be breasts! :D (Sorry, it's just... it seems that every politician is an idiot these days. Not that they weren't always, but at least there seemed to be some sensible ones. No longer. But, you know, at least they should be thinking of something else besides getting their wiener waxed.)

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blackmare

At the point when I left Florida, I was pretty impressed with Charlie Crist, the (then) Republican governor of the state. He was too sane to stay in the current bonkers!GOP, though, so he went independent and without the backing of the GOP's funds, lost the next election.

Sad.

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His problem was obviously that he wasn't over-preoccupied with sex, then... Truly, and unfortunate state of affairs.

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Jackal, this cracked me up! =D
I won't try to describe the word picture that collided in my brain between self-worship and a literal 'waxed weenie! *LOL*

This made my night. hee

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Oh, you're quite right that I had that picture in my head, also. Really, it's not right though. Only think, if these men could actually engage in autofellatio then the world would be spared their sexcapades (or possibly they'd never pursue politics because they wouldn't leave the house).

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It would be great if they never left the house. Lol
When you consider how adolescent some of their behavior is one has to wonder about how many of our other leaders just haven't been caught yet. They're running things and they're immature. Just scary, I tell you.
I love your sense of humor by the way. =•]

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blackmare

I don't know whether to be sad or not that this wasn't yet one more conservative hypocritical idiot douchebag.

Um ... at least between him and Edwards we're getting some variety lately?

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pwcorgigirl

It actually pains me to read about John Edwards. He had it all, and threw it away for a piece of tail.

There's some fatal mix of hubris and vanity that makes men like that think they're bullet-proof. *shakes head*

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taiga13

I've read that these alpha males have stronger than average sex drives, that it comes with the high-powered types, but that doesn't explain STUPIDITY! I didn't hear of this before now but I would have been one of the ones believing his lies about his Twitter account being hacked because I wouldn't believe that a politician could be that dumb. Geez.
There was a joke list once about the differences between Canadians and Americans and one of them was "Canadians don't know for certain if their political leaders EVER have sex and don't want to know about it if they do!". It's funny because it's true. I don't know why it is, but I'm glad of it.

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I'm liking this post from the science-fiction writer John Scalzi -- Dude, what were you thinking? Oh, wait! You weren't!

Heh. At least there's hockey on now!

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damigella

I think that the idea of a politician having to follow any particular sexual moral is nonsense. Politicians shouldn't be criminals, and politicians who want to push in a nation's throat their supposed morality should have the decency to follow it.

But otherwise, I'm with the Frenchmen. The former President, Socialist François Mitterrand, had a logterm relationship with a woman who was not his wife. She had a child from him, who took her father's name. At his funeral, both his families were present, holding each other in mourning, crying together their loss. I found it moving.

And I wouldn't grudge our PM paying hookers (minors for a 70+ year old I do find icky, if legal) if he hadn't pushed on us the most horrible assisted reproduction law in the Western hemisphere. Italian women who have serious fertility problems and can afford it go get reasonable health care in Turkey. [The really well-to-do, Israel.]

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I agree that a persons sex life is their own. But use discretion and don't be a liar. At least Arnold Schwarzenegger was discreet (no one seemed to know for years) AND as far as I know he took responsibility for it and didn't try to deny anything. If he did, then I missed that part in the news.
I also agree with you that if politicians are going to tout their supposed morality then they ought to follow it. Well, said. :)

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aries_ascendant

This is my favorite comment by far, "Tearful Weiner Admits He Pulled a Boner."

Facebook isn't always a cesspool. :D

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HA, now that's a good one!

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Nightdog! This one's for you!
Today's Borowitz report is fitting, I think.
It made me smile. :)
http://www.borowitzreport.com/

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blackmare

At this point he's halfway through one of those fandom!wank bingo cards:

I don't know what happened!
I was hacked!
Someone else sent pictures that might or might not have been mine I can't remember!
Okay, it was me, but! It was all a joke!

Right now he says there were SIX WOMEN with whom he had these "relationships" but that he never personally met nor sexed up any of them. And I find myself sinking so deep into unwarranted cynicism that, shockingly, I do not believe him.

ETA: or rather, I believe there were those six, and then another number with whom he didn't have to tweet his package because he was making personal deliveries.

I really should have more faith in humanity, shouldn't I?

Edited Date: 2011-06-07 02:49 am (UTC)

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